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	<title>Comments on: Strategic Defaults: To Walk Or Not?</title>
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	<description>Everything That&#039;s Wrong With You And Your Money</description>
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		<title>By: Gen X Mom</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4313</link>
		<dc:creator>Gen X Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 22:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4313</guid>
		<description>I was young &amp; naive and listened to Greenspan...&quot;there is no bubble&quot;.  I bought my starter home in CA, Sept 05 (not even the height of the bubble) for $309K w/ 20% down and a 30-yr fixed.  

I figured in 5-7 years I would be making more money (which I am), be able to sell it off for enough to get a down payment on a newer home in a nicer school district (I am in a transitional neighborhood).  Now. here we are 5 years later and there is no chance in heck that within 2 years I am going to be able to pay off the loan, let alone get my 20% back out of it  My house is assessed by the County at $155K and on Zillow for $143 and Istill owe $222K on this place, not to mention the roof needs to be replaced.

I DON&#039;T WANT TO LIVE HERE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND RETIRE HERE BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT &amp; BANKS SCREWED ME.  Screw them!!  I pay my bills on time, every time.  I have a low 800 FICO.  Now they want to drive their Audis and  live in gated communities and take vacations to Europe while I have to prop up the country on my friggin back?  NO.

Two different attorneys told me to foreclose.  They said don&#039;t even short sell.  That is just to help the banks and realtors.  It doesn&#039;t help my FICO enough to waste the time and energy.

My folks helped me out by getting a loan in their name, I&#039;ll pay the mortgage, and they&#039;ll leave it to me in the Trust when they die.  I am actually moving to the house I want to retire in and my daughter can go to public schools that are in the Top 100 of the State.  No more groups of teenage boys coming down the street dropping the F bomb in front of my 4 year old and calling each other the N word.  No more cops coming down my street b/c the party on the corner is still raging at 2 AM.  No more broken down cars in peoples driveways.  We close on the new house in two weeks, and I am mailing in my keys.

I tried to play by the rules, but I just got played.  I hear my score will probably be back in the 700&#039;s again in two years if I keep paying everything else.  I&#039;m DONE with this nightmare.  I will never trust the government ever again.  You have to look at for yourself in this world.  Nobody else will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was young &#038; naive and listened to Greenspan&#8230;&#8221;there is no bubble&#8221;.  I bought my starter home in CA, Sept 05 (not even the height of the bubble) for $309K w/ 20% down and a 30-yr fixed.  </p>
<p>I figured in 5-7 years I would be making more money (which I am), be able to sell it off for enough to get a down payment on a newer home in a nicer school district (I am in a transitional neighborhood).  Now. here we are 5 years later and there is no chance in heck that within 2 years I am going to be able to pay off the loan, let alone get my 20% back out of it  My house is assessed by the County at $155K and on Zillow for $143 and Istill owe $222K on this place, not to mention the roof needs to be replaced.</p>
<p>I DON&#8217;T WANT TO LIVE HERE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND RETIRE HERE BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT &#038; BANKS SCREWED ME.  Screw them!!  I pay my bills on time, every time.  I have a low 800 FICO.  Now they want to drive their Audis and  live in gated communities and take vacations to Europe while I have to prop up the country on my friggin back?  NO.</p>
<p>Two different attorneys told me to foreclose.  They said don&#8217;t even short sell.  That is just to help the banks and realtors.  It doesn&#8217;t help my FICO enough to waste the time and energy.</p>
<p>My folks helped me out by getting a loan in their name, I&#8217;ll pay the mortgage, and they&#8217;ll leave it to me in the Trust when they die.  I am actually moving to the house I want to retire in and my daughter can go to public schools that are in the Top 100 of the State.  No more groups of teenage boys coming down the street dropping the F bomb in front of my 4 year old and calling each other the N word.  No more cops coming down my street b/c the party on the corner is still raging at 2 AM.  No more broken down cars in peoples driveways.  We close on the new house in two weeks, and I am mailing in my keys.</p>
<p>I tried to play by the rules, but I just got played.  I hear my score will probably be back in the 700&#8242;s again in two years if I keep paying everything else.  I&#8217;m DONE with this nightmare.  I will never trust the government ever again.  You have to look at for yourself in this world.  Nobody else will.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4251</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4251</guid>
		<description>Frankly, I am disgusted with people attitude. If you borrow money, you should pay it back. If you bought a worthless property and you overpaid, it your fault as well as the banks fault for giving you the money to actually buy it. 

Now to basically say, well it is not problem, but the banks, it is not correct.

This is why we have the problem with crisis in the first place, people stopping to pay their debt on time. If one default is fine, if it is 10%, it is seriously concerning, but if it is 40% it is destroying markets and economies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, I am disgusted with people attitude. If you borrow money, you should pay it back. If you bought a worthless property and you overpaid, it your fault as well as the banks fault for giving you the money to actually buy it. </p>
<p>Now to basically say, well it is not problem, but the banks, it is not correct.</p>
<p>This is why we have the problem with crisis in the first place, people stopping to pay their debt on time. If one default is fine, if it is 10%, it is seriously concerning, but if it is 40% it is destroying markets and economies.</p>
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		<title>By: Shadow Inventory &#124; Weakonomi¢s</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4240</link>
		<dc:creator>Shadow Inventory &#124; Weakonomi¢s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4240</guid>
		<description>[...] from Weakonomics.com.Powered by WP Greet Box WordPress PluginFollowing on the discussion from yesterday, there&#8217;s another topic you&#8217;re going to start hearing more about soon: shadow [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from Weakonomics.com.Powered by WP Greet Box WordPress PluginFollowing on the discussion from yesterday, there&#8217;s another topic you&#8217;re going to start hearing more about soon: shadow [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4237</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4237</guid>
		<description>DWG, I don&#039;t blame you. That is a lot of money, I&#039;d do the same thing in your shoes. My house is only posted as worth about 10-20k less than what I paid, and I expect it to bounce back over the years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DWG, I don&#8217;t blame you. That is a lot of money, I&#8217;d do the same thing in your shoes. My house is only posted as worth about 10-20k less than what I paid, and I expect it to bounce back over the years.</p>
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		<title>By: DWG</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4236</link>
		<dc:creator>DWG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4236</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m paid 375k for a house now worth 150k in 2006.  My house will probably never be worth what I paid for it again in my lifetime.   I&#039;m not sinking 90% of my wealth over the next 40 years to pay for this place when it turned into such an unbelievably bad investment.  I actually had a number for when I would default.  That number was if the house went below $200,000.  It was dumb of me to get into the place when I did but I thought inflation and wage gains would make the place more affordable in 3-5 years.  This home was only intended to be a starter home because I live in CA and it is small.   I&#039;ve been actively asking the bank to foreclose this place for the past 6 months as currently I am 18 months in arrears.   The bank won&#039;t move on it.   I&#039;m moving out at the end of this month because I am tired of waiting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m paid 375k for a house now worth 150k in 2006.  My house will probably never be worth what I paid for it again in my lifetime.   I&#8217;m not sinking 90% of my wealth over the next 40 years to pay for this place when it turned into such an unbelievably bad investment.  I actually had a number for when I would default.  That number was if the house went below $200,000.  It was dumb of me to get into the place when I did but I thought inflation and wage gains would make the place more affordable in 3-5 years.  This home was only intended to be a starter home because I live in CA and it is small.   I&#8217;ve been actively asking the bank to foreclose this place for the past 6 months as currently I am 18 months in arrears.   The bank won&#8217;t move on it.   I&#8217;m moving out at the end of this month because I am tired of waiting.</p>
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		<title>By: DWG</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4235</link>
		<dc:creator>DWG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4235</guid>
		<description>12 months?  Try 24 months+ in many cases.  In CA, NV, AZ, FL, a 24 month foreclosure period is the norm right now.   Anyone who gets the bank to actually finish the process in 12 months should count their lucky starts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>12 months?  Try 24 months+ in many cases.  In CA, NV, AZ, FL, a 24 month foreclosure period is the norm right now.   Anyone who gets the bank to actually finish the process in 12 months should count their lucky starts.</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4233</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4233</guid>
		<description>Personally, I suppose I may be underwater, since as soon as I moved into my house I asked the county to reassess the value to lower my property taxes. So now it&#039;s listed in the county files as being worth less than what I owe the bank. But I don&#039;t consider that I&#039;ve lost anything. I got the house for way less than the previous owner wanted, and I got the tax credit for buying it. And I didn&#039;t buy it to flip it or to make money (it&#039;s a damn money-pit), I bought it for the non-financial benefits that come with owning a home. 

People who want to walk away because they&#039;re paying more than a home is worth are in a different situation from me, they probably bought the home at the top of the market and they really are wasting a good 50-100k that they should never have agreed to pay. I guess whether to default or not depends on part on whether the house is a financial object or an emotional object to the borrowers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I suppose I may be underwater, since as soon as I moved into my house I asked the county to reassess the value to lower my property taxes. So now it&#8217;s listed in the county files as being worth less than what I owe the bank. But I don&#8217;t consider that I&#8217;ve lost anything. I got the house for way less than the previous owner wanted, and I got the tax credit for buying it. And I didn&#8217;t buy it to flip it or to make money (it&#8217;s a damn money-pit), I bought it for the non-financial benefits that come with owning a home. </p>
<p>People who want to walk away because they&#8217;re paying more than a home is worth are in a different situation from me, they probably bought the home at the top of the market and they really are wasting a good 50-100k that they should never have agreed to pay. I guess whether to default or not depends on part on whether the house is a financial object or an emotional object to the borrowers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4232</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4232</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a homeowner (not underwater), but I don&#039;t see anything wrong (i.e. immoral) with people walking away from mortgages that they can still afford to pay. I think a person has the right make the decision that they think is in their best financial interests, just like any business would do. To me, honoring the terms of the contract doesn&#039;t mean paying as long as you can afford it; it means accepting the contractual/legal consequences of not paying. However, I don&#039;t think it is right for a person to live in a house that they are no longer paying the mortgage on. Ok, so maybe the banks don&#039;t have time to get around to foreclosing on them and finding a new buyer when they don&#039;t pay, and maybe they are maintaining the property better than the bank would if it were vacated, so maybe the banks aren&#039;t losing any real earnings. But, that still seems like stealing to me because I doubt you can find that clause anywhere in the contract/laws. Of course, if a person wants to use non-payment as a method to get the banks to negotiate, I have no problem with that as long as they pay the back-mortgage (and fees) eventually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a homeowner (not underwater), but I don&#8217;t see anything wrong (i.e. immoral) with people walking away from mortgages that they can still afford to pay. I think a person has the right make the decision that they think is in their best financial interests, just like any business would do. To me, honoring the terms of the contract doesn&#8217;t mean paying as long as you can afford it; it means accepting the contractual/legal consequences of not paying. However, I don&#8217;t think it is right for a person to live in a house that they are no longer paying the mortgage on. Ok, so maybe the banks don&#8217;t have time to get around to foreclosing on them and finding a new buyer when they don&#8217;t pay, and maybe they are maintaining the property better than the bank would if it were vacated, so maybe the banks aren&#8217;t losing any real earnings. But, that still seems like stealing to me because I doubt you can find that clause anywhere in the contract/laws. Of course, if a person wants to use non-payment as a method to get the banks to negotiate, I have no problem with that as long as they pay the back-mortgage (and fees) eventually.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4231</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4231</guid>
		<description>Economics is cool because it&#039;s a mix of math and psychology.  (I&#039;m an applied mathematician.  Straight-up &quot;plug and play&quot; equations get boring after awhile.)

I don&#039;t have a mortgage (career renter) but the side of me who would have went to law school thinks this:

1.  I signed a contract saying that I would receive X for making $Y payments for Z months.

2.  My payment activity may be reported to the consumer reporting agencies.

3.  If I fail to make those payments, certain actions may happen.

So, for those who say that &quot;I agreed to make payments&quot; well, yeah, I did.  But they&#039;re telling a half-truth.  I agreed to make payments AND I agreed that if I failed to make those payments, then certain actions will happen.  I signed the contract in its entirety, not just the part others want me to uphold.  I signed an agreement that allows me to suffer the consequences for failing to perform.  If I choose to suffer the consequences, then I should be allowed to not perform.

As an aside, (and perhaps relevant) supposedly there existed a day care facility who was having problems with parents picking up their children late.  This was driving increased child-care costs because the staff needed to stay late.  As a response, the facility came up with late fees, charging the parents a nominal amount for being late.  In turn, this actually increased the number of parents who would pick their children up later, which was completed the opposite expected response.  The conclusion was that once the &quot;penalties&quot; became part of the contract, the parents had no moral qualms by exercising that portion of the contract.

The economist in me (that&#039;s the math/psych mix part of me) thinks that anybody who creates a contract, expecting/relying on performance, should create a situation that STRONGLY discourages non-performance.  You don&#039;t want strategic defaulters?  Don&#039;t lend in an environment that would encourage that, or change that environment.

As for those who live in non-recourse states, the appropriate response should have been to charge higher interest rates in the first place to cover that risk.  Another possible business response is to simply  not do business there.

I didn&#039;t speak about morals and ethics, because, quite frankly, if Big Business doesn&#039;t have to have them, why should consumers? (The selfish answer to that is *I* want you to perform on your contract, because if you don&#039;t, it will make it more expensive for me in the future when I decide I can actually afford a house.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economics is cool because it&#8217;s a mix of math and psychology.  (I&#8217;m an applied mathematician.  Straight-up &#8220;plug and play&#8221; equations get boring after awhile.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a mortgage (career renter) but the side of me who would have went to law school thinks this:</p>
<p>1.  I signed a contract saying that I would receive X for making $Y payments for Z months.</p>
<p>2.  My payment activity may be reported to the consumer reporting agencies.</p>
<p>3.  If I fail to make those payments, certain actions may happen.</p>
<p>So, for those who say that &#8220;I agreed to make payments&#8221; well, yeah, I did.  But they&#8217;re telling a half-truth.  I agreed to make payments AND I agreed that if I failed to make those payments, then certain actions will happen.  I signed the contract in its entirety, not just the part others want me to uphold.  I signed an agreement that allows me to suffer the consequences for failing to perform.  If I choose to suffer the consequences, then I should be allowed to not perform.</p>
<p>As an aside, (and perhaps relevant) supposedly there existed a day care facility who was having problems with parents picking up their children late.  This was driving increased child-care costs because the staff needed to stay late.  As a response, the facility came up with late fees, charging the parents a nominal amount for being late.  In turn, this actually increased the number of parents who would pick their children up later, which was completed the opposite expected response.  The conclusion was that once the &#8220;penalties&#8221; became part of the contract, the parents had no moral qualms by exercising that portion of the contract.</p>
<p>The economist in me (that&#8217;s the math/psych mix part of me) thinks that anybody who creates a contract, expecting/relying on performance, should create a situation that STRONGLY discourages non-performance.  You don&#8217;t want strategic defaulters?  Don&#8217;t lend in an environment that would encourage that, or change that environment.</p>
<p>As for those who live in non-recourse states, the appropriate response should have been to charge higher interest rates in the first place to cover that risk.  Another possible business response is to simply  not do business there.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t speak about morals and ethics, because, quite frankly, if Big Business doesn&#8217;t have to have them, why should consumers? (The selfish answer to that is *I* want you to perform on your contract, because if you don&#8217;t, it will make it more expensive for me in the future when I decide I can actually afford a house.)</p>
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		<title>By: drcrosson</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/06/14/strategic-defaults-to-walk-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4230</link>
		<dc:creator>drcrosson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=4418#comment-4230</guid>
		<description>The ethical behavior of many banks doesn&#039;t instill feelings of sympathy for the other side.  If it were held by a credit union, it would feel absolutely wrong, but credit unions are not the ones that made all of the questionable bets.  You signed an agreement with a bank that you forfeit the property if you don&#039;t pay.  You break the agreement, then the bank gets the property.  If the property had accrued value, they wouldn&#039;t split the profit with you, so why should it be any different on the other side?

If I were having little difficulty in making the mortgage, was in a stable employment situation, and liked the area, then who cares?  That&#039;s a quantitative assessment though and doubtlessly one made by people across the country who have not defaulted despite being upside down on their mortgage. It&#039;s not worth the hit on the credit report and it&#039;s not like they can easily get another cheaper property if they&#039;ve defaulted on another one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ethical behavior of many banks doesn&#8217;t instill feelings of sympathy for the other side.  If it were held by a credit union, it would feel absolutely wrong, but credit unions are not the ones that made all of the questionable bets.  You signed an agreement with a bank that you forfeit the property if you don&#8217;t pay.  You break the agreement, then the bank gets the property.  If the property had accrued value, they wouldn&#8217;t split the profit with you, so why should it be any different on the other side?</p>
<p>If I were having little difficulty in making the mortgage, was in a stable employment situation, and liked the area, then who cares?  That&#8217;s a quantitative assessment though and doubtlessly one made by people across the country who have not defaulted despite being upside down on their mortgage. It&#8217;s not worth the hit on the credit report and it&#8217;s not like they can easily get another cheaper property if they&#8217;ve defaulted on another one.</p>
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