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	<title>Comments on: What Grinds My Gears: Tax Deductions Edition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/</link>
	<description>Everything That&#039;s Wrong With You And Your Money</description>
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		<title>By: kosmo @ The Casual Observer</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3602</link>
		<dc:creator>kosmo @ The Casual Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3602</guid>
		<description>yep, I understand the tone.  I was simply trying to show that most expenses are very legit.

In fact, many of the &quot;waste&quot; expenses have a positive ROI.  If you have a very mobile workforce, cars and blackberries make your employees much more productive.  

In my company (very large Fortune 500) I see a lot of situations where a refusal to spend money results in lower productivity - such as laptops vs. desktops a few years ago - saving a couple hundred bucks over 3 years, but crippling the productivity of people with the desktops.  A couple of bad weather days makes up the difference (since the folks with laptops are expected to be 100% productive from home in a blizzard)

Attack the waste; sure.  Buy don&#039;t throw out the baby with the bath water.
.-= kosmo @ The Casual Observer&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheCasualObserver/~3/MUxszy1Ill4/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I Know That I Can’t Take It No More … It Ain’t No Lie&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yep, I understand the tone.  I was simply trying to show that most expenses are very legit.</p>
<p>In fact, many of the &#8220;waste&#8221; expenses have a positive ROI.  If you have a very mobile workforce, cars and blackberries make your employees much more productive.  </p>
<p>In my company (very large Fortune 500) I see a lot of situations where a refusal to spend money results in lower productivity &#8211; such as laptops vs. desktops a few years ago &#8211; saving a couple hundred bucks over 3 years, but crippling the productivity of people with the desktops.  A couple of bad weather days makes up the difference (since the folks with laptops are expected to be 100% productive from home in a blizzard)</p>
<p>Attack the waste; sure.  Buy don&#8217;t throw out the baby with the bath water.<br />
<span class="cluv"> kosmo @ The Casual Observer&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheCasualObserver/~3/MUxszy1Ill4/" rel="nofollow">I Know That I Can’t Take It No More … It Ain’t No Lie</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://weakonomics.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: LeanLifeCoach</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3601</link>
		<dc:creator>LeanLifeCoach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3601</guid>
		<description>@Kosmo - You make a valid point for capex but the tone of the post was really directed not to investment in the business or even COGS but to all the miscellaneous operating expenses. 

Companies routinely waste more money that we can imagine. Just look at the earnings reports over the past year at how many of them have had devastating drops in revenue but were able to maintain or even increase profitability. In many cases these cuts were personnel unfortunately, but there was also a lot of cuts on non-personnel expenses.

Honestly, I&#039;m not sure I could get on board  with the idea but it is worth considering alternatives. We have to hand it to the Weakonomist for thinking outside the box!
.-= LeanLifeCoach&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://eliminatethemuda.com/2010/02/combat-the-closing-techniques-the-puppy-dog-close/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Combat The Closing Techniques – The Puppy Dog Close&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kosmo &#8211; You make a valid point for capex but the tone of the post was really directed not to investment in the business or even COGS but to all the miscellaneous operating expenses. </p>
<p>Companies routinely waste more money that we can imagine. Just look at the earnings reports over the past year at how many of them have had devastating drops in revenue but were able to maintain or even increase profitability. In many cases these cuts were personnel unfortunately, but there was also a lot of cuts on non-personnel expenses.</p>
<p>Honestly, I&#8217;m not sure I could get on board  with the idea but it is worth considering alternatives. We have to hand it to the Weakonomist for thinking outside the box!<br />
<span class="cluv"> LeanLifeCoach&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://eliminatethemuda.com/2010/02/combat-the-closing-techniques-the-puppy-dog-close/" rel="nofollow">Combat The Closing Techniques – The Puppy Dog Close</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://weakonomics.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Kosmo @ The Casual Observer</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3599</link>
		<dc:creator>Kosmo @ The Casual Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3599</guid>
		<description>LeanLifeCoach said:

&quot;Why not take it the other way, no longer allow expense deductions for business.&quot;

Well, for many, many companies (actually, for many entire industries):

(revenue * tax_rate) &gt; net profit

If I need to buy a Widget Machine for $1M to produce my $1 widgets, I incur this cost whether or not the tax authority allows me to deduct the expense.  I have no choice.  No machine = no product.

So if I make 1.1M widgets @ $1 each (assuming no labor costs, material costs, etc) I end up with $100,000 in my pocket.  At which point the government taxes me on the whole 1.1M.

Deductibility of business expenses allows business to be on even footing with each other.  Manufacturing, for example, had a considerably higher expense ratio than consulting.

Cost accounting is actually a rather fascinating topic :)

Weaknomist said:
&quot;If the value of property they own goes down, deduction. &quot;

Depreciation is really not that great of a deal for businesses.  Given the choice of how to write off the expenditure of the 1M widget machine, it would be far better to be able to write off the entire expense in year 1 than pro-rate the cost over a number of years.  Some people seem to think that companies are recovering 2X the cost of the item, which is not true.
.-= Kosmo @ The Casual Observer&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheCasualObserver/~3/rXgCVXmsUlk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Technology Ruins The Olympics&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LeanLifeCoach said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Why not take it the other way, no longer allow expense deductions for business.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, for many, many companies (actually, for many entire industries):</p>
<p>(revenue * tax_rate) &gt; net profit</p>
<p>If I need to buy a Widget Machine for $1M to produce my $1 widgets, I incur this cost whether or not the tax authority allows me to deduct the expense.  I have no choice.  No machine = no product.</p>
<p>So if I make 1.1M widgets @ $1 each (assuming no labor costs, material costs, etc) I end up with $100,000 in my pocket.  At which point the government taxes me on the whole 1.1M.</p>
<p>Deductibility of business expenses allows business to be on even footing with each other.  Manufacturing, for example, had a considerably higher expense ratio than consulting.</p>
<p>Cost accounting is actually a rather fascinating topic <img src='http://weakonomics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Weaknomist said:<br />
&#8220;If the value of property they own goes down, deduction. &#8221;</p>
<p>Depreciation is really not that great of a deal for businesses.  Given the choice of how to write off the expenditure of the 1M widget machine, it would be far better to be able to write off the entire expense in year 1 than pro-rate the cost over a number of years.  Some people seem to think that companies are recovering 2X the cost of the item, which is not true.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Kosmo @ The Casual Observer&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheCasualObserver/~3/rXgCVXmsUlk/" rel="nofollow">Technology Ruins The Olympics</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://weakonomics.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3596</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3596</guid>
		<description>Wow weakonomist, that&#039;s actually a very interesting proposal. I work as an accountant here and I&#039;d never thought of taxes in quite that way before.

I guess you could say that a corporations or businesses sole reason for existing is to be in business, therefore everything they do is business related. Whereas with individual citizens usually only expenses directly related to earning your taxable income are tax deductible.

I&#039;m going to think about what you discussed further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow weakonomist, that&#8217;s actually a very interesting proposal. I work as an accountant here and I&#8217;d never thought of taxes in quite that way before.</p>
<p>I guess you could say that a corporations or businesses sole reason for existing is to be in business, therefore everything they do is business related. Whereas with individual citizens usually only expenses directly related to earning your taxable income are tax deductible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to think about what you discussed further.</p>
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		<title>By: the weakonomist</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3595</link>
		<dc:creator>the weakonomist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3595</guid>
		<description>Steve, you are right.  This could do wonders for the accounting industry.  I hadn&#039;t thought of that.  The auditing would of course be a nightmare so the IRS would have to triple in size too.  

Evan, this isn&#039;t a back-ended way of getting to a flat tax.  However it is a lot like the fair tax.  Good thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you are right.  This could do wonders for the accounting industry.  I hadn&#8217;t thought of that.  The auditing would of course be a nightmare so the IRS would have to triple in size too.  </p>
<p>Evan, this isn&#8217;t a back-ended way of getting to a flat tax.  However it is a lot like the fair tax.  Good thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: LeanLifeCoach</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3594</link>
		<dc:creator>LeanLifeCoach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3594</guid>
		<description>Definitely a post to make you go hmmmmm... 

It is the kind of intriguing concept that is just outside the box far enough that it makes one stop and think. 

Considering there are so many people that want to carry a big mortgage for the tax break I imagine you are right, it would encourage more spending to avoid taxes. This is what makes me nervous. Our country is already financially frail as it is because of overspending and lack of savings on the part of the consumer. 

Why not take it the other way, no longer allow expense deductions for business. They will then be encouraged to be more frugal which will make them more stable. Our economy will slow from where it is and it will be a painful adjustment but at least then it would be stable and sustainable going forward. 

As for the additional taxes that will have to be paid, there could be an adjustment in the rate. 

Eventually all taxes are paid by the consumer either directly or indirectly through the pockets of corporate America. What should really grind your gears is the out of control federal and state spending! That is the root cause. 
.-= LeanLifeCoach&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://eliminatethemuda.com/2010/02/what-is-your-learning-style/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What Is Your Learning Style?&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely a post to make you go hmmmmm&#8230; </p>
<p>It is the kind of intriguing concept that is just outside the box far enough that it makes one stop and think. </p>
<p>Considering there are so many people that want to carry a big mortgage for the tax break I imagine you are right, it would encourage more spending to avoid taxes. This is what makes me nervous. Our country is already financially frail as it is because of overspending and lack of savings on the part of the consumer. </p>
<p>Why not take it the other way, no longer allow expense deductions for business. They will then be encouraged to be more frugal which will make them more stable. Our economy will slow from where it is and it will be a painful adjustment but at least then it would be stable and sustainable going forward. </p>
<p>As for the additional taxes that will have to be paid, there could be an adjustment in the rate. </p>
<p>Eventually all taxes are paid by the consumer either directly or indirectly through the pockets of corporate America. What should really grind your gears is the out of control federal and state spending! That is the root cause.<br />
<span class="cluv"> LeanLifeCoach&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://eliminatethemuda.com/2010/02/what-is-your-learning-style/" rel="nofollow">What Is Your Learning Style?</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://weakonomics.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Evan</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3592</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3592</guid>
		<description>I may have to re-read the post, but isn&#039;t this just a back ended way to get to a flat tax?  Wouldn&#039;t it be easier for everyone to ignore deductions rather than having everyone keeping track of it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have to re-read the post, but isn&#8217;t this just a back ended way to get to a flat tax?  Wouldn&#8217;t it be easier for everyone to ignore deductions rather than having everyone keeping track of it?</p>
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		<title>By: steveDH</title>
		<link>http://weakonomics.com/2010/02/17/what-grinds-my-gears-tax-deductions-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3590</link>
		<dc:creator>steveDH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weakonomics.com/?p=3852#comment-3590</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t this force everyone use the accrual based accounting rules? You might grow the billion dollar accounting business into a trillion dollar accounting business. Little things like car insurance and home owners insurance would have to be accounted based on when the expense occurred - not when it was paid. ( i.e. if you pay you $1,200 dollar insurance bill in November for coverage starting in December, $1,100 would have to be accounted for in a &quot;pre-paid insurance&quot; account, driving up your retained earnings and therefore your tax liability.)
Very interesting idea though. I&#039;ve explored accrual based accounting for my household but it turned out to be excruriatingly painful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t this force everyone use the accrual based accounting rules? You might grow the billion dollar accounting business into a trillion dollar accounting business. Little things like car insurance and home owners insurance would have to be accounted based on when the expense occurred &#8211; not when it was paid. ( i.e. if you pay you $1,200 dollar insurance bill in November for coverage starting in December, $1,100 would have to be accounted for in a &#8220;pre-paid insurance&#8221; account, driving up your retained earnings and therefore your tax liability.)<br />
Very interesting idea though. I&#8217;ve explored accrual based accounting for my household but it turned out to be excruriatingly painful.</p>
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